Super Pops, Turning Negatives into Positives & Challenging Social Norms with Katrina Edillor

00:00:00] Vicky: 

hello, and welcome to the case and party podcast by he syndicate a nonprofit dedicated to closing global economic gender gaps. I'm your host Vicky ley and today's guest is Katrina Edillor. Katrina is head of AIX ventures for Coca-Cola Europe, Pacific partners, where she leads Amatil X venturing for Australia, Indonesia at the Pacific.

Katrina is also the host of the super pops podcast, which shines a lot on fathers who choose to become the primary carers in their families On this show, we challenged gender-based stereotypes in the home explode Katrina's Curry tapes. When you're the only diversity doing the room and how to use your trauma as power. 

Welcome to the show Katrina. It's fantastic to have you here today.

[00:00:52] Katrina: Thank you. Vicky. It's a pleasure and a privilege to be on your show.

[00:00:56] Vicky: Well, we're so happy to have you here. Why don't you start [00:01:00] by introducing yourself for our audience?

[00:01:02] Katrina: Hi everyone. I'm Katrina Edillor. I lead. CCEP ventures. That's Coca-Cola Europe, Pacific ventures, in Asia Pacific and Indonesia. What we do is we create value for the main business, through connecting startups with existing businesses to solve, challenges or business problems and where it makes sense.

We. Explore an equity investment. I also sit in the board of Western Australia, containers for change, As a Coca-Cola you're Pacific Australia representative, and also currently observing the board of the benevolent society. Prior to that, I was an economist for the winemakers, Federation Australia.

And prior to that, I worked in investment banking in Southeast Asia.

[00:01:54] Vicky: such a career track record. When have you felt the most economically empowered in your [00:02:00] career as a diverse leader 

[00:02:01] Katrina: The very first moment is when I became financially independent from my mom when I was 17 years old, I got a scholarship from the Singaporean government and so, I did not have to ask for money anymore from my mom, which I usually did, living in the Philippines. And so that was very, very empowering. And that was the first time I felt that. I could really do anything. and I regarded that, you know, as education scholarships, to be a huge opportunity for, students, for, for people coming from developing.

Countries to level the playing field. So, that really gave me confidence in my career and tackling various challenges that I encountered after that. 

[00:02:50] Vicky: Yeah. And I remember on our call, as we were preparing for this show, we were talking about the importance of education as a [00:03:00] tool to economically empower and lift people out of poverty. So it's so wonderful to hear your own journey as someone who was born in the developing world and who has succeeded and excelled in the developed world.

So congratulations. I would love to hear about, the professional achievements that you're most proud of and why.

[00:03:22] Katrina: I would relate it back to my previous answer, I guess, that experience, this scholarship experience, and the inclusion that I felt, because of that opportunity really helped my confidence as I went through my career.

And so my three call-outs in terms of career achievement would be first. I was appointed the resident economist for the winemakers Federation. And what that meant was really leading the. Empirical modeling, of submissions that we made on behalf of, the wine industry. I [00:04:00] represented the Australian wine industry in budget lockups, in Canberra, uh, during budget day.

and it is a very proud moment because I would be the only diverse, leader there. So I was really proud that, I had that opportunity.

The second one would be, My work in, uh, what was previously known as Coca-Cola Amatil and that's helping the business, sell more beverages. I created develop and executed a customer segmentation strategy. and that meant a lot because I helped. Our customers grow as well. And that's their main livelihood.

And so it is a proud moment that I was able to help them, be more successful in their business. And then the third one is part of the work that I'm doing in CCP [00:05:00] ventures. And that is. Investing not only in businesses but in founders that would make, society. You know, more inclusive in terms of the technology, that they're building.

and we're investing in companies that are relevant to the business, but you know, we are all part of one single community. And so when they succeed, the people around them succeed as well. And so that, ability. To change, a founders, trajectory, to change their life.

Their family's life is something that I'm very proud of as well. 

[00:05:35] Vicky: Awesome. I loved the way you phrased it, you know, changing a founder's life and the trajectory. And, you know, prior to that, doing that for, producers, the small business owners that you worked with Coca-Cola and then, in the wine industry, showing up yourself as a diverse founder in a diverse leader, I think there's something quite unique in your career [00:06:00] story.

And I also noticed it when we had a call, when you're on the client-side in a professional setting, you were the only woman on the call. You're the only woman at that strategy table and at the decision-making table. And it sounds like you've done that multiple times throughout your career. And you also lift up others who may also be sitting in that diverse leader seat and providing opportunities for them through your investing, work and your venturing work with Coca-Cola and supporting, distributors and just supporting small businesses.

Do you have any advice for someone who is navigating this difficult seat on what's worked for you in the past and what hasn't worked for you?

[00:06:43] Katrina: you know, to be honest, in the early days of my career, I didn't really notice that I'm the only diverse or the only woman in, these forums. And I wasn't going to do anything about it. However, as I grew older and the [00:07:00] more I realize that there is a societal challenge, there is a societal gap.

There is a gender gap. I started using these opportunities To make sure that my voice is heard and to ensure that I somehow educate and make the people around me more aware of what's happening. And so in terms of tips, the few things that worked for me in the past are to be always curious, to ask questions, and really.

Challenge yourself to ask questions and be curious in a place of authenticity. whenever I do that, I realize that, you know, the other person or the group of people are just unaware or they're, you know, it's their unconscious bias talking. And there is really no ill intent of their, actions.

in terms of what hasn't worked it's I guess the reverse, right? It's assuming what is in people's [00:08:00] minds, because once you assume, you know, without, any facts supporting that. You tend to be defensive and you're being defensive for nothing.

So, I guess I'm not sure whether that is practical advice, but those are the two tips that I've been using. and I've been reminding myself to do.

[00:08:20] Vicky: I personally think that's great advice. And I feel like you always said it directly to me. Cause I was like, yeah, no, I definitely sat in that seat where I've been defensive and I've jumped to conclusions about what people are thinking or saying about me and that's called extreme angsty, particularly in the workplace.

So, no, I think that's actually a really great tip to leave with our audience.

[00:08:41] Katrina: But I guess Vicky it's also critical to note that I'm still very much work in progress that, you know, I say these are the tips because, you know, retrospectively. I Can think about it, but sometimes when, the conversation is too personal, it, you know, it just triggers you.[00:09:00] 

It's, it's still very hard, but I'm also working on myself on making sure that I'm disciplined enough, that when I recognize what are the triggers, then I jump to. Curiosity, questions based on curiosity versus questions based on assumptions.

[00:09:17] Vicky: So I'm curious about understanding the process of going from I've just been triggered. What are the things that you say to yourself with the questions that you then ask systematically to move yourself into a place of curiosity and authenticity 

[00:09:31] Katrina: Really good question. So. I've been working on myself for, you know, for the last few years. And I realized that there are physical manifestations if you're triggered. Right. And for me, I know. That I'm triggered. when I start having sweaty palms, when, I start getting warm and, you know, my, face is getting red and that's sort of, 

[00:09:55] Vicky: Oh, no, that's the way I've had that to my face goes red. I'm like, oh, damn, everybody knows that I'm [00:10:00] triggered.

[00:10:01] Katrina: and that, that is sort of my cue. Hey, there is something going on here and what is making you, defensive without verbalizing it. And so I try to really slow things down, breathe and then ask, and this is where I guess, where the magic happens, you start.

And you sort of responded through empathy. so if somebody asks me a question and I immediately assume that it's an attack on my competency or capability, you know, and then I, recognize that. So instead of telling them that I think you're wrong, I'm good. Um, 

[00:10:46] Vicky: At work.

[00:10:46] Katrina: I would, I would say, can you tell me more about that? or what I'm hearing is, is this a Right.

assumption? so it's, it's more of really. Trying to understand where this person's coming [00:11:00] from. So I guess that's not a secret, but the very thing that I'm working on myself and it, you know, I'm working it on professionally and, you know, personally with my husband, with relatives, et cetera. 

[00:11:16] Vicky: Oh, you know, I'm right there with you. Totally trying to work on that. And I have absolutely used that. well, when I, when I am sovereign and when I've maintained my sovereignty, That question really does. work. this is what I'm hearing you say. Or have I heard this correctly?

My assumption is X, Y, Z. and leaning on sort of more the, my coaching background. It's the using words like I, that really helps to diffuse a tense situation so that you know, the other person doesn't feel they didn't go into fight or flight and get defensive.

[00:11:45] Katrina: Yeah. And I feel that the phrase I feel works because, You are entitled to what you feel. and it helps me be grounded on the emotion. and trying to explain [00:12:00] that, without judging. 

[00:12:01] Vicky: Agreed completely. And it's important to, like you said, well, I think, being grounded is very important in terms of anything to do with interactions with others, and generally in business as a whole, I find the most successful people that I've met and that I've worked with. They have very grounded and they're able to maintain sovereignty when they are triggered, which as we know, happens on a daily basis in the workplace.

I feel like, you know, we've had some really great conversations about your career and your professional achievements, but I know there's this whole other side of you, you know, and you sort of touched on it with some of the philanthropy, impact work that you do.

I want to give you some space to talk about the part of the economic gender gap that you are personally tackling you know, why you tackling that particular area and what's your solution.

[00:12:50] Katrina: . So I'm becoming super pops is, a podcast that I created to shine a light on fathers who choose to become primary carers of their children. [00:13:00] And.

Who break gender stereotypes. They brave awkward conversations and they lead their families to reach their full potential. And the reason why I was very inspired to do this is because of my family dynamic. my husband is a primary carer Of our daughter Clara. And I didn't realize that he was, I knew he was unique.

I knew he was special, but I didn't realize that he also represented a group of fathers or a population of fathers who are trying to normalize. and de-stigmatize the father earner. Mother carer sort of societal norm that, you know, have been ingrained in, in the society forever. And so I was passionate to do something about it and the more I talked to dads, [00:14:00] the more I read up on research.

The bigger, I'm understanding the problem to be, So it just, for example, one of the dads i've, interviewed and had a conversation with, his name is Blake Woodward and he leads an advocacy organization. the main goal is to support dads in every stage of their parenthood or fatherhood.

And he gave me a stat that 5% of, dads, only 5% of that take on the. primary carer role, or take the primary care leave in the first year of their child's life. and again, I'm going to my curious side. Why, why is this happening? and then the other stat that really inspired me is.

Approximately 7% increase in the mother's wage for every month. A father stays on parental leave and I guess, yeah. And so, you [00:15:00] are advocating for, you know, parody. but I think there is. Always, you know, two sides of the equation. We definitely need more women the chase parity, but at the same time, we need more fathers to enable, mothers women to actually chase that parity. 

[00:15:21] Vicky: No, I, I, a hundred percent agree with you. That's definitely been a theme that we've been seeing in the limited episodes that we've done so far is that you know, all the women who have come on the show and who are sitting in seats, where they are decision-makers or where they are, economically empowered, a lot of them have thanked or pointed to.

Male champions, male mentors, a husband, a spouse, someone who has supported them in that journey because we know that success is rarely ever done alone. There's always a team around you. so I totally agree with you.

[00:15:57] Katrina: Yeah, and I guess it's also a very [00:16:00] important to point out that what I'm advocating for is. Applicable for everyone it's not applicable for families. But what I'm trying to do is normalize. It makes it an option in families that would want to consider it. so that's where my passion, currently lies and, I've been very fortunate and privileged to be speaking with.

Different fathers and dads in terms of their journey and what they want to society to be like in terms of, having more inclusive and supportive policies, for example.

[00:16:38] Vicky: and if you could change one thing to help support super pops around the world, uh, what would that be? How could we better support them in our communities and in our companies? 

[00:16:50] Katrina: That's a very good question, Vicky. I guess I'll answer that by just summarizing the data. That I've been seeing and [00:17:00] hearing from the super pops that I've been interviewing in the last few weeks. And I could summarize that with three C's. The first one is. Company policies like dads fathers need to be able to tap into the parental leaves that, mothers have traditionally, been given like company policies need to be gender-neutral.

the second C would be. Curiosity from that, you know, there's part of it are companies, workplaces being supportive of, equitable, parental leave policies. But if there are no curious dads or fathers, then there would only be policies. And so dads need to be curious as to, you know, Hey, what does, parental leave feel like?

You know, is this a way where I could help my family so you need to have curious dads. and then the third C would be [00:18:00] courage because. It's still, a road.

road less traveled to for a lot of fathers.

they need to be courageous because you would have, you know, different people ask you weird, awkward questions. And I can tell you that, you know, our neighbor. He still asks, Nick, my husband, whether is he enjoying being the primary care? When's he going to go back to work? what does he do the whole day?

You know, those are the questions that are not coming from, a bad place, but those are valid questions. If this family dynamic is not normal. so yeah, so those are the three things that I've, been seeing and learning from my conversations.

And as the broader community, I guess my. My ask is let's normalize this, let's talk about it. Let's elevate the conversation. And the next time you see a dad in the park or a playground talk to him, so, so yeah, so those are my, asks, I guess. 

[00:18:59] Vicky: I love the [00:19:00] three C's, you know, your company, policy, curiosity, and courage. That's actually a really great way to summarize how we can better support the dads in our communities and also us as women, because we know most about what audience, you know, of women, what we as women can do to help normalize conversations in our day-to-day lives.

you know, I've had these, these topics that have come up as well from the men in my life. some asking, what do you do? You know, you ask, how are you, you know, how are you going? How's life, you know? why are we always labeling ourselves based on, what we do for a living when we're all human beings?

[00:19:36] Katrina: I agreed Vicky spot on, 

[00:19:38] Vicky: So tell us more about your diverse background and I think you were telling me your mother was a big inspiration for you. So please dive into that a little. 

[00:19:48] Katrina: yes. So I was born in the Philippines. I left when I, was 17, my mom has been the most influential person in my life to date. And [00:20:00] the main reason I guess, is because of her. Courage. She was subject to domestic violence. When, when she married her husband, my father. And she had four children just before she hit 36.

And so she had, to make a very difficult decision whether to leave her husband then, and especially in the Philippines where there is no divorce. And so you had to go through men, it would take you ages like years to, you know, to officially. Get separated from premier husband, despite compelling reasons.

And so she somehow mustered the courage to take us 4 and raised us, sent us to private schools. you know, she's one of the most adaptive, most innovative person. I know. I mean, when the lockdown hit, she adapted to working from home, and doing zoom calls faster than I think I did.

And so she continues to [00:21:00] inspire me and my siblings.

[00:21:02] Vicky: I had no idea that your mom had such a difficult circumstances to work through and you growing up as a child in a house with domestic violence, must've been really hard for you. So I'm sorry to hear that, having this model as a mother, how has that informed the way you've approached your career or the way you.

Approach parenting with your new daughter. Congratulations. By the way. 

[00:21:30] Katrina: Thank you. Oh. Before that Vicky. I must say that, you know, although that she was subjective to violence, I did not let that affect my relationship with my father. and that's a very, very difficult thing to do because you know, this person did that. Your mom it's at there, but I guess.

So the ability to take that negative experience to something positive is very important. And, and so that didn't let me sever my [00:22:00] relationship and my dad. And, you know, until now I'm, I'm very close to him and. Although he wasn't a good husband. He was, it's still is a, a good dad. 

[00:22:10] Vicky: That's such an interesting perspective because I've come from a diverse background too. So I understand, households where violence may be a part of the communication style. You know, they don't know any better. That's just what they grew up with. And it's interesting how you've said that he wasn't a great husband, but he was an excellent father and that he was very supportive to you as a woman.

That's an interesting point of view and maybe something that we can probably anyone from a diverse background can appreciate and understand how hard it is to try to separate the emotions that surround such a difficult relationship. 

[00:22:50] Katrina: Hundred percent. And, um, I think the more. We could add, no, I dunno. The more we could separate the two, I think the [00:23:00] more we're able to convert the negative experience, still more positive ones and negate, whatever trauma there is to a life-giving change, a life-giving experience.

[00:23:12] Vicky: Do you have any advice or tips around breaking through trauma? Or trying to see something negative in a positive light. Cause that's something I constantly struggle with and I'm sure a lot of people in our audiences the same, any tips around that would be really helpful.

[00:23:31] Katrina: I think in terms of processing it, I've done it quite inwardly. I did a lot of self reflection and then I think giving my time to others helped me as well.

Meaning I used volunteering opportunities to help people and to learn more about their experience as well. And that somehow helped me convert these, um, experiences to a much more positive one. 

[00:24:00] An example would be know, I went to Singapore, I made sure that I signed myself up for volunteering activities, 

so there's two years that I volunteered in an all male prison. And every Saturday I'd go there from. The whole morning I have to lead with a faith based organization. So I went there to not talk about the faith and, and shared, , what, I I've gone through my experience and they open up and, I see that as the win-win, I'm sure there's a bit of a healing process on both sides in that, It's crazy. Right. And I've never, labeled it trauma, to be honest, picky. And I just I've been just sharing it as experience, but maybe it could be labeled as trauma. I'm not sure.

[00:24:49] Vicky: It's definitely trauma. 

[00:24:50] Katrina: Thank you. I'm so just to provide context, why I've, you know, went on, you know, all these volunteering things. So, you know, mom, that, that happened to [00:25:00] mom that happened to our family. And 

my brother was thirteen years old then was I think most subject to what's happening with the family. And, and so he, among, as all found himself in bad company.

And so he dabbled into the drugs hung out with friends, who, aren't the best, influencers. And so that also negatively affected. Me and my sister, I can imagine because, um, you know, instead of just doing our normal teenage things, at 13 or 12, you know, we had to visit my brother in rehabilitation center or something like that.

So, 

[00:25:40] Vicky: Then. 

[00:25:41] Katrina: yeah, so it was, it was a very difficult childhood now that I can think about it,. Um, but you know, but again, that sort of experience, I had a lot of anger, but then again, left Manila. Manila went to Singapore. It really made sure that, Hey, I've [00:26:00] got, this insight, I've got this experience. How can I channel it to like a more positive, how can I help other people with this experience?

And so I that's the reason why I volunteered through, I think through Caritas for when, through, you know, uh, , all-male, it's like they're juveniles prison and yeah. And, and two of them are mine. Facebook friends now. 

[00:26:22] Vicky: I love this real lean into the healing . 

[00:26:27] Katrina: I never thought about it like that. And this is so different from what we just spoke about Vicky in terms of

our pre-determined questions.

[00:26:41] Vicky: I love how we've like thrown away all of our pre-questions and when I let's just see how we go, this is way better. 

[00:26:49] Katrina: Awesome.

[00:26:50] Vicky: Yeah. And okay. So I just want to zoom into that a little bit, because I feel like this is a really important point. The way you process negative [00:27:00] emotion, it sounds like you give away the emotion that you want to have.

You try to heal and process. Anything negative and with intention, see it in a positive light. Like I love the fact that you volunteered and volunteered in such a specific way, you know, where that's, so counter-intuitive to what must've been, you know, child trauma or, you know, whatever you want to call it.

But you know, that kind of experience normally it makes someone angry and bitter and naturally translates into the workplace. When you see a character or a boss or a manager or a coworker has similar traits. That's when that's when all of the, uh, the trouble starts so love that you've approached, the healing and, you know, that's probably been a real reason why you've been so successful in your career. 

[00:27:51] Katrina: Well, thank you for articulating it that way, Vicky. I think I've got my mom to thank for, you know, I mean, as well, [00:28:00] she, I think she's a master of this, you know, channeling all negative emotions and experiences to something positive. I think I've just elevated that process and I potentially made it quicker and more efficient.

Yeah.

[00:28:14] Vicky: And yes. Agreed your mommy is amazing, but I just want to note that you're doing what all women do, which is downplay your awesomeness. I will say that. You've all awesome. And Thank you. for sharing. So vulnerably with us.

[00:28:28] Katrina: Thank you. My pleasure. I don't think have articulated that. Part or my history that way before. But I think now having had a, you know, a daughter that just sort of inspires me and motivates me to, you know, to be a better version of myself every day.

[00:28:46] Vicky: Yeah, no, that's definitely something we should all be aspiring towards. And speaking of your daughter, that is a great segue to a question that I have around challenges for women right now, you know, what do you see on the [00:29:00] horizon for women in corporations across, the Asia Pacific? You know, what aren't we talking about enough?

What keeps you up at night? 

[00:29:08] Katrina: I think we have a long list of challenges and as women, we just have a lot more things to consider. I, an example would be a couple of girlfriends would, would tell me. I'm unhappy at work, but I'm planning to get pregnant.

So I cannot leave. I cannot leave the company or else I wouldn't get maternity benefits and for you to endure. A time period of uncertainty and the reason why we can't look for options is because you just don't want to forfeit the benefits or, maternity leave, et cetera.

I think that's a very disempowering place to be in because firstly. You don't know when you're going to fall pregnant, it could be in the next three months, it can be in the next five years. And so [00:30:00] does that mean that you would have to be unhappy at work in that whole five years? I think that is a problem. And then let's say you you're blessed with a baby. Then there's so many challenges for women. For example, for me, I wanted to come back after six months. And there are people who are telling me that that's too soon, your child is still small.

This child still needs you. There's so many voices. There are so many perspective and good thing. I, I stood by my decision, went back after six months and I was able to do it. And once in your work you get questioned. Are you taking full-time or part-time? And I decided to go back full-time right from the get-go.

And so. You know, that also is questioned like, oh, who's taking care of the baby. You know, I mean that never gets asked to my male counterparts. Did they come back full time? Nobody asked who who's taking care of the baby. You know, it's just, I don't know. We're just subject to a lot of. you know, being the [00:31:00] person giving birth, I guess you're just subject a lot of expectations and expectations, I think from society from the community, but as well as from yourself, 

[00:31:10] Vicky: I think something that's interesting in what you said was this concept of expectations from society, but key word from yourself, something that mothers. All around. All of my friends were new babies. they always talk about this guilt that they feel when they're either not doing enough at work, because they're not able to do enough at work because of their duties at home, or they're not spending enough time with their child because of their duties at work.

And so there's this constant guilt. That you can never get through. So can you talk to me a little bit more about how you manage that in your own household? And also please talk about your family dynamic because I'm kind of in love with your husband and the way you guys have set yourself up.

So please tell us more about your arrangement and how you navigate the [00:32:00] guilt of being here. 

[00:32:01] Katrina: Great. I'm so happy to hear that I'm not the only one in love with my husband and I, girlfriend of mine actually said, can I buy shares of shares from, from Nick? Nick is my husband. Um, Nick's one of a kind, and if there's something. Keeps me awake at night. It's how I could clone him to, you know, for the rest of the world.

So. Uh, Nick and I are great team together. I've been very authentic and honest with him, And he knows that I like to work. I'm committed to my career and he has supported me throughout. and he also told me even before Clara. Um, was born that he would want to take the primary carer role and I fully support, him on that.

And so he's a primary care. [00:33:00] What that means. Is I go to work, maybe, you know, working from home or in the office, physically and Clara is with him the entire day. And you know, they go to swim class together. They go to the zoo together. They go to museums, they go to the aquarium. Nick is so good at researching what the appropriate activities for every, every developmental stage for kids and babies.

So I, I'm very confident that Clara is in great hands with him, aside from that. So ever since I've met Nick I've not cooked a lot for us. Um, so he also feeds me and takes care of me. and so I'm able to focus with work Yeah. So that's, that's Nick that's that's Nick and we call, we call him super pops. So, in our family, he is super pops. My mom calls him super pops because he is,[00:34:00] 

[00:34:02] Vicky: Yeah, love pops 

[00:34:05] Katrina: yeah.

[00:34:07] Vicky: and all the super pops out there. But I think that is such an important message too. Any fathers out there, like stay at home dads or women, if you're listening and you've got a, a super pop at home, you know, I think it's so important that their story gets told because they are the unsung heroes here.

There's no way that I could do my work. If I didn't have such a supportive husband just pushing me and backing me to go for my dreams, I, the role of men in the empowerment of women is so important. And we don't talk about it enough. So love that you've shared your husband's story. You know, I'm seeing more changing dynamics in the family arrangement and yeah.

Any, any advice you can offer to, you know, offer to maybe someone who's trying to find her, partner in [00:35:00] life. you obviously did something, Right. Because you said he's been feeding you and taking care of you. I'm like tick, tick, tick. So is there anything that you. Any advice you can offer to someone who's trying to, um, you know, build her career, choose a life partner.

Um, any thoughts? 

[00:35:15] Katrina: Oh, just, we gotta be authentic. Um, when I, when I met Nick, you know, I had like a laundry list, then I want to be like this. I want to do this. Or whatever that, um, I was just really authentic with, with him and say, this is who I am. And, you know, this is who I am, take it or leave it really. And, but you know, he chose the ticket.

So, um, yeah, I just, I, cause I now believe, and I, I really know that there is somewhere someone out there for you perfectly for you who will support and make the best. Teammate for you in life. [00:36:00] And I think that's choosing well, choosing a partner well is a very huge decision for you.

[00:36:09] Vicky: I would say that is one of the most important decisions you can make for your career, choosing your life partner and making sure they're aligned with you values wise and that you guys have the same ambitions and values and long-term vision. I feel like that makes all the difference.

[00:36:29] Katrina: I agree because, you know, as we know, some women marry their glass ceilings, right. So.

It's had you're right. You know, but, but you don't actually know you're marrying your glass ceiling, right. Unless that person is constantly making sure that you're reaching your potential. And, and so. Advice is to normalize it, ever since Nick became Clara's primary care, I've met at least two more dads, that have taken on that role.

[00:37:00] And, I'm sure they're more dads sorry. 

[00:37:04] Vicky: I was like too much more than we had before. 

[00:37:08] Katrina: Exactly, but they're more dads before Nick that have done that. but we just need to talk about it more and normalize it a little bit more and I'm sure there are more there. And I guess for women, what that means is when the next time you see a dad in like swim class, talk to them, and next time you see a dad in your mom's group.

Talk to them on the next time you see a dad in a playgroup or a playground, talk to them. Cause every time I asked Nick, you know, so what did you do today? did the moms talk to you in, in the playground who would always say no? So you know, why, why aren't we talking? to the dads 

[00:37:54] Vicky: That is so sad. 

[00:37:56] Katrina: exactly.

[00:37:58] Vicky: I have no idea. Like [00:38:00] you don't even think about it. I guess all of our conversation is around the mother and the woman going back to her career. But yeah, I didn't even know, think about that, that they're probably feeling, you know, these super pops that are obviously, hopefully growing in number.

They're probably having to face isolation and all the things that come about when you're a minority. 

[00:38:22] Katrina: Exactly. I think we're just blessed that Clara, our daughter is so extroverted is that every time she's in a playground, she says hi to everybody. So that. Sort of not just them to say hi to my husband as well. So, you know, this is so simple. Just talk to the dads out there and you know, they're also looking for their tribe.

[00:38:46] Vicky: I think that's such a powerful way to end this podcast. Talk to the dads, heal the trauma, lean into love and really. You know, take care [00:39:00] of you. So thank you so much for joining our show. Katrina, you have been so brave, honest, and just, vulnerably raw about your background. And thank you for letting me take us a little bit off track from our great questions you did wonderfully.

[00:39:18] Katrina: Thank you, Vicky. I'm very proud of your work, your advocacy and how you're doing and chasing parity and multiple levels. 

[00:39:28] Vicky: My absolute pleasure.